How to Get More Coaching Clients as a Business Performance Coach Interview with James Pagano

James Pagano is a business performance coach based in Charlotte, NC, whose passion is working with small business owners. James’ client engagements are collaborative and holistic, with a focus on such areas as strategic business development, relationship management, and the ever-elusive goal of time management, also known as prioritization.

Recently, Bay Area Executive Coach’s Michael Neuendorff caught up with James to gain some insight into how this veteran business and executive coach helps his clients achieve positive results.

Michael Neuendorff: James, before you became a coach, what business were you in?

James Pagano: Well, immediately before becoming a coach, I was a director of marketing for a health care company. And before that I owned a small agency where we did a lot of educational output for pharmaceutical and biotech companies. That’s how I ultimately got to Charlotte, North Carolina. It was through a former client of my prior business who recruited me into the Charlotte market to be the director of marketing at a health care company located there.

Michael Neuendorff: OK, so that’s what took you to Charlotte and took you from that job into being a coach. But why the change?

James Pagano: My ultimate desire at the time was to get back into business for myself. In my staff job I developed professionally beyond what I could have done on my own as a business owner, so that was very valuable for me. But eventually I knew it was time to get back out into the world of entrepreneurship. And that’s when I discovered coaching. But surprisingly enough, it really wasn’t coaching that I thought about. It was more like training and, specifically sales training because I had a lot of experience in that. That’s where I began my new career search that ultimately led me to what I do now, which is small business coaching and performance coaching for small business owners.

Michael Neuendorff: Your background led you to wanting to own a business again, and that was driven by your interest in helping people develop sales, improve sales, and improve the way they run their business. But how do you generate business as a coach? That’s always the big question I’m asked when I’m training other coaches: “how do I find someone to coach?”

James Pagano: When I launched my coach told me: “James, in order to be a coach, you need a client.” You can have all the credentials and all the certifications and processes, but without a client you’re not coaching. I think this is where my sales background really benefited me tremendously. I want to underscore to other coaches the importance of selling. You have to get out and you have to sell. I mean, it’s not going to come to you. You have to be out in your community. You have to be out selling. It’s a dirty word, I know, but you have to sell.

Michael Neuendorff: In the world of coaching, what does that look like? I ask because there are two schools of thought about how to sell coaching services. One school is that you just meet with the person and coach. You give them a taste of what it’s like to work with you as a coach and they buy in. In the other school you leave actual coaching until after the client engagement formally begins. So, what’s your philosophy about actually selling coaching?

James Pagano: It’s a blend of both for me. I do believe we need to uncover the needs of clients. I do believe we need to build a strong rapport with our clients. I believe that success comes from the chemistry and the rapport that you build with your client. I engage with a client and I stick with them for a long period of time. So, I think it’s essential that the client and the coach “get” each other and want to work with each other. It becomes less about the selling process and more about the engagement between two people.

Michael Neuendorff: I often talk about the trust and intimacy that you establish with your clients, and that allows them to open themselves up to you in a way that they might not with someone else. And once we start living in the truth, then we can change for the better

But getting back to sales. What do you think coaches need to understand about sales? What should they learn about sales to help themselves be more successful?

James Pagano: I think you have to have a process in mind as far as what sales looks like for you. As I mentioned, we have to uncover the needs of the client and build rapport. I think those two items are foundational to the sales process. So, think about it. If you’re out and about and you’re meeting with people, you want to have a conversation with them and learn about their business and you want to get to know them and you want to find that common ground with them. What is it about them that resonates with you and what is it about you that resonates with them? So, start with that conversation and establish rapport.

And here’s something else that we all have to do as coaches and as salespeople, and that’s listen. Don’t just throw a question out there while thinking about the next question that you’re going to ask. Just enjoy the conversation. And I think that’s a vital first step for a sales process. Rapport building is when you start to develop a connection, and also gain permission to enter the prospect’s world and start to ask questions that uncover what is it they need from you. I think we have to combine those first two elements as vital first steps of the sales process.

I feel that it goes back to authenticity. Who are you? Who do you really want to work with? That’s a great place to start the sales process. But let’s not try to be everything to everybody because it’s not going to work. It’s not going to feel right.

Michael Neuendorff: Interesting. I’m hearing establish their needs, listen carefully, build a connection and rapport with the client now, and enjoy the process.

James Pagano: Exactly, and I think that’s where a lot of people struggle.

They create this barrier where they think they have to have all the answers, all the solutions, all the way up front, as opposed to just letting it organically happen. Because to me, those are the best conversations. That’s the best way to discover who you’re going to work with, who this prospect is. And have fun with it and enjoy it. If you can enjoy the initial conversation you’re having with a prospect, think how enjoyable it’s going to be to coach them. But you’re going to have to get into their world and you’re going to have to dig deep. And that’s where, from a sales process standpoint, I think you can help the process along by being natural and authentic and having a genuine conversation.

Michael Neuendorff: Yeah, I like that approach a lot. Why do clients hire you versus another business performance coach and maybe even one in Charlotte these days? We can coach people around the world through these virtual mediums, but many people, especially people in small business, like to work with a coach in their community. At least that’s been my experience. But why you, James? I ask this because another area that many coaches struggle with is: “how do I differentiate myself from other coaches?”

James Pagano: I think you’re hitting on something tremendously important for when you’re out there marketing yourself as a coach. Again, I said it earlier, trying to be everything to everybody is not a recipe for success. It just doesn’t work. People want to work with you for who you are and what you do. So be authentic. Lead with that. And I believe people are working with me because of the background I have with business ownership. This is actually the third business I’ve owned in my life. So, arriving at the table to say I’m a business performance coach and oh, by the way, I’ve owned businesses, I think helps.

I also have the corporate experience that folds into my small business coaching, and I think that adds another layer of perspective that helps my clients as well. And I’m local. I’m in their community. I coach locally. So, I think those three things differentiate me from a lot from other coaches.

Michael Neuendorff: OK, great, but how do you get results with your clients? Like what do you feel is your secret sauce in helping clients achieve their big goals?

James Pagano: I come to the table with process, and I think that’s vital. We have to have a process on how we’re going to deliver the results. In my first engagement with my client, I ask very specific outcomes that they’re looking for: timeline and outcomes. I look for a measurable metric that we could put on the table together. And what I say to them is: “let’s look for results-based metrics that indicate a trend in a certain direction.” I don’t want clients to get bogged down with “I need this to happen in three months, six months, a year.” I want them to give me a metric that would be meaningful if we started to see that trend line in the right direction. Then we know we’re doing something right and it’s a way for us to see if we’re achieving what we set out to do with me as their coach.

I also ask: “what do you want this to feel like and to look like as we work together? Let’s not be so caught up on the first metric which is just raw numbers. But what is it that you want to sense or feel or hear? More sensory, more subjective?”

What I’ve found is the combination that small business owners are looking for. They’re looking to achieve results, but they also want to be fulfilled as they achieve those results. So that’s my combined way to measure. And I believe that differentiates me further in my practice, because I come at it from a holistic approach. We’re going to look at business performance, but we’re going to look at fulfillment for the owner as well. And in combination, that’s where we measure success.

Michael Neuendorff: Yeah, I like that a lot, James. You know, I’ve known you for a while and you’ve been coaching for how many years now?

James Pagano: Eight years. I started in January 2013.

Michael Neuendorff: You hit your eighth anniversary and you’ve coached a lot of people. You’ve found that this combined approach of measure with markers on the way to milestones is effective, but you also present a qualitative picture to the client of how do you want to feel and what do you want to hear? And I like that qualitative aspect to it, because then clients change their way of being. And oftentimes when we change our way of being, we’re able to better focus on those hard metrics that we’re really looking for. When we feel better about our business, our business tends to do better.

James Pagano: That’s right. And you know, Michael, how many small business owners have you worked with or do you know that sometimes they begin to get through that phase of questioning? Why am I doing this? Is it worth it anymore? And that’s a tough position to be in as a small business owner. So, you want to find if the passion is there and reignite it if you can, but, you know, find what’s going to make them feel more fulfilled in their business.

Michael Neuendorff: I know that you focus on the ever-elusive time management issue and its prioritization. And I know this is a big area for business owners and even corporate professionals. I work with a lot of executives and time management is just as elusive for them as it is for small business owners. What are some of your tips and ideas that can help people improve their time management?

James Pagano: I’ll share with you what works for me. I think it starts by triggering in your mind what you’re worth and what’s that value and putting a dollar value on it. And I often coach my clients to state their value in those terms. It’s an easy way to frame it. But I also tell them: “don’t take your paycheck and divide it by how many hours you work, because that could make you feel pretty, pretty low. So, let’s be figurative with this. You know what you believe your worth is as an owner of your business?” If they come back with anything under $100 an hour, I challenge them on that. I say, let’s think bigger. Remember, you’re the president, the CEO, of your company.

So, I think a good way to start with prioritization is to believe in what you’re worth on an hourly basis. Because then as you look at your to-do list as you look at what you’re setting out to do, you can then use that as a barometer to check yourself. Should I really be spending six hours doing this task when I just said my worth is $125 an hour, when I know that this task is really worth $15 an hour? it starts to give you a perspective that’s a simple but often powerful way to influence what you do with your time.

Another exercise that I think a lot of folks should do is put together a time log. What you’ve done in your day, in your week, four, five working days, ten working days start to really look at where you’re spending your time and on what activities, and then you can measure that against the value of time.

There are other things you could do with that. How well does it line up with your goals? How well does it help you achieve your goals, all these activities? So, we have to get into a practice of looking at what we’re doing in order to understand where we should be spending our time a little bit better.

Practice the 80/20 principle where 20 percent of your effort should yield 80 percent of your results if you’re focused on the right activities. So, we have to force ourselves to think about that. If I could go a step further, look at the matrix that Stephen Covey shared in his “Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.” In the Important and the Urgent matrix, where does your time fall? It could fall in one of those four boxes, but I actually believe there’s another dimension, and that dimension is long-term impact.

So many small business owners will do a task because they’ll say: “well, it’s easier for me to do this. It’s just easier for me to do this rather than asking somebody else to do it for me.” But when you challenge it against the long-term impact, it sometimes gives you a reminder or at least a hint that that’s something you shouldn’t be doing. I should delegate this or I should hire this out, according to how your business is structured. Is it an outsourced responsibility? Is it a part-time responsibility? Is it an employee responsibility? I think this makes you more aware of where your time should be allocated.

So, I know I’ve covered a lot here, but I think they all kind of meld together and really, it’s value your time for where you should be working. It’s really all an exercise in that. Lastly, I’m a big proponent of finding where your energy lives. In other words, do you perform certain tasks better at certain times of the day, at certain times of the week? If having a sales conversation with a certain prospect is a really, really, high priority for you that day, don’t schedule it for a time when you usually have low energy. We have to be very aware of when we perform at our best and put our highest value tests around that time frame.

Michael Neuendorff: I totally agree with that. There’s a recent book written by Dan Pink called “When,” where Dan talks about the importance of timing. A lot of what you mentioned reminds me of another book called “Procrastinate on Purpose” by Rory Vaden, where he talks about that long-term impact. Sometimes we get caught up in the short-term impact items that fill our day and even fill our week. And we neglect those items that have long- term impact.

But going back to another answer that you said, that 80/20 ratio, if we spent 20 percent of our time working on things that had long-term impact, it would eventually drive 80 percent of the results in our business. You’ve given us a lot of great ideas here, James.

James Pagano: They only become valuable if you apply them and have the discipline to stick with them. That’s the challenge. That’s why coaching is beneficial because we supply the accountability aspect to our practice. I tell my clients: we can talk about these things all day long, but if you don’t apply them and then be held accountable to them, no positive changes are going to happen. Making positive changes happen has always been the challenge for coaches.

Michael Neuendorff: I totally agree that accountability is so important. And I think sometimes that that’s one of the primary reasons a person hires a coach. Small business owners often aren’t accountable to anybody, although sometimes to a spouse, but not in the same way that they are to a coach. Often, they’ll share more about their business with their coach than they will with their spouse. Coaches play a really valuable role that just about no one else in the small business owner’s world can do.

James Pagano: That’s right, and can I play off of that for a minute? In my office I have a wall poster of an island with a title that reads: “Escape the island to safety.” This is an analogy that I use with small business owners. We’re on an island and we need to escape that island from time to time. And having a coach, having a third-party perspective, is a way to do that. And it goes beyond the subjective approach of your family or your friends. It’s an objective perspective. So, we need to escape the island. It’s isolating. And I think this hits home with small business owners who feel isolated despite the fact that they may have people around them all the time. So that’s part of what I do in my practice. I help my clients escape the island of isolation.

Michael Neuendorff: Do you offer one-on-one coaching or group coaching?

James Pagano: I do both.

Michael Neuendorff: I’m going to wrap up with this last question for you. You mentioned Stephen Covey as an influence, so how do you “sharpen the saw,” to use Stephen Covey’s term? How do you do that?

James Pagano: My way to sharpen the saw is through ongoing growth and development. I believe every business owner needs to engage in professional development in some capacity, if only because the competition is doing it and you have to stay on top of your business. So, for me, I read a lot and I set goals. Typically, I set a goal that I’ll read six to ten books in a year and I usually exceed that. I love to read. And sometimes I go back to re-read the foundational books by Stephen Covey, Dale Carnegie, and Napoleon Hill that got me started. I also try to engage in a certification or a higher-level education platform for my coaching practice each year.

Michael Neuendorff: I want to thank you so much, James. You’ve shared incredible wisdom with us that I know is going to benefit the people reading this interview.

James Pagano: Well, thank you for the opportunity, Michael. It’s been fun.

You can watch the whole video here.

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